Direct approach to pushing web standards up

@BuezaWebDevAug 20.2004

For XHTML 2.0

Eliminate ALL tags within <table><tr><td>, thus, only data can be inserted.

<table> can only be enclosed within a <DIV>

<table> can only be used at maxwidth of 500px

Hah, that outta do it. Damn table-layout users.

What do you guys think? Pretty harsh rules to implement for XHTML 2.0, eh?

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25 Comments(s) _↴

@MstrBobAug 21.2004 — #I doubt any of that would happen.

(1)What if you needed to markup data within the table? Say you want emphasized text, or insert an image as data?

(2)Tables are block elements. Requiring a table within a <div> (or any block element) would mean that a table would have to be an inline element. But it's not. So that couldn't happen.

(3)Well now, limiting the size of an element is just plain silly. Plus, that would be a CSS implementation :p Especially on today's newer, bigger screens, you can't limit width/height without losing visibility/usability. Or what if you just plain have a lot of data?

@Paul_JrAug 21.2004 — #I think someone should write a virus that will wipe out websites that are using tables incorrectly. ?

@BuezaWebDevauthorAug 21.2004 — #Hahah, cheers to that Paul.

@Stephen_PhilbinAug 21.2004 — #It'd be nice to have restrictions that could ensure the correct use of tables without having a negative impact on good, valid, semantic markup.I certainly can't think of any way other than preventing tables having a 100% X 100% size definition. However you can't change the old html (which is what most table users use anyway being either blissfully unaware or ignorant of more modern code) and the more up-to-date versions should be used with css (which can't tell what tags the definitions are linked to anyway.

I think the best way to go about promoting web standards would be to simply encourgae people verbally and most effectively of all - show them with your own (and others) works that really show of the efficiency and sheer quality that it can deliver. Stick it right there, on their screens, in their face.

@BuezaWebDevauthorAug 21.2004 — #Also, some of the older XHTML tutorial books that were published in 2002 use tables for layout.

Awful. :S They also use the <font> tag. ?

I'm glad there are books now and of 2003 with semantic code. ?

@spufiAug 22.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by BuezaWebDev [/i]

[B]For XHTML 2.0

1. Eliminate ALL tags within <table><tr><td>, thus, only data can be inserted.

2. <table> can only be enclosed within a <DIV>

3. <table> can only be used at maxwidth of 500px

Hah, that outta do it. Damn table-layout users.

What do you guys think? Pretty harsh rules to implement for XHTML 2.0, eh? [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you talking your take on XHTML 2.0, or the W3C's take?

@BuezaWebDevauthorAug 22.2004 — #My own take to eliminate table layout! ?

@NevermoreAug 22.2004 — #But... if you did that people wouldn't use xHTML 2.0 and you would have held back progress. Nice idea. :rolleyes:

@BuezaWebDevauthorAug 22.2004 — #Good point..hmm...

eliminate html 4.01 etc...

only have xhtml 2.0 ?

@Paul_JrAug 22.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Nevermore [/i]

[B]But... if you did that people wouldn't use xHTML 2.0 and you would have held back progress. Nice idea. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

[i]Originally posted by BuezaWebDev [/i]

[B]Good point..hmm...

eliminate html 4.01 etc...

only have xhtml 2.0 ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Heh, that's what I was thinking. Eliminate all forms of (x)HTML except for XHTML 2.0.

@NevermoreAug 22.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Paul Jr [/i]

[B]Heh, that's what I was thinking. Eliminate all forms of (x)HTML except for XHTML 2.0. [/B][/QUOTE]

How? You can't just turn them off, you know. ?

@Paul_JrAug 22.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Nevermore [/i]

[B]How? You can't just turn them off, you know. ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Uhh... do it in a Windows update? ? Almost everyone uses Windows. Just send out an update for it — something like that. ?

@NevermoreAug 22.2004 — #Because usability will really be improved by destroying people's sites... and it will really inspire confidence in xHTML if you just destroy its previous incarnation.

@davidbrentAug 23.2004 — #Why are you getting so wound up with [B]other[/B] developers using tabled layouts? Don't you find a bit of self satisfaction in the fact that you are producing something technically and accessibly better?

Let them suffer the role of being "one of the normal folks" and take the leadership of guru!

Best Wishes,

David

@Paul_JrAug 23.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by davidbrent [/i]

[B]Why are you getting so wound up with [B]other[/B] developers using tabled layouts? Don't you find a bit of self satisfaction in the fact that you are producing something technically and accessibly better?[/b][/quote]
Actually, no. They're the ones getting business; they're the ones making the money, and it's all because the average person who wants a website doesn't know ( and doesn't care) that the designer is using tables/unsemantic code/bloated code/ect. And, I also don't get any satisfaction from it because I see so many people recommending the incorrect usage of tables — most of the folks at the HTML Forums do, and it really, really irritates me. :mad:

I couldn't say for sure, but it's my opinion that people who write good, clean, accessible, valid code are not as recognized as those who write crap, because we're the only ones who know that what we're doing is better.

I'm in a bad mood; can you tell?

@NevermoreAug 23.2004 — #But when people eventually do realize - and it [b]is[/b] happening - we get the business. ?

@BuezaWebDevauthorAug 23.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Nevermore [/i]

[B]But when people eventually do realize - and it [b]is[/b] happening - we get the business. ? [/B][/QUOTE]

Definitely. ?

@Paul_JrAug 23.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Nevermore [/i]

[B]But when people eventually do realize - and it [b]is[/b] happening - we get the business. ? [/B][/QUOTE]
True. But who says they'll eventually realize? CSS has been around for, what, 8 years? And the web even longer, but people [i]still[/i] don't know.

@johndoe190Aug 23.2004 — #True. But who says they'll eventually realize? CSS has been around for, what, 8 years? And the web even longer, but people still don't know.[/QUOTE]

I cant agree more and what pis*es me off more is that us people here take the time to learn the right ways to code when some designers only take the time to learn photoshop and just use the slice option but they are the ones collecting the money because there good at graphics so that usually equals a nice looking website.

I dont know if you'll get what i mean.

And people im also in a bad mood:mad:

@NevermoreAug 23.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by sharkey [/i]

[B]I cant agree more and what pis*es me off more is that us people here take the time to learn the right ways to code when some designers only take the time to learn photoshop and just use the slice option but they are the ones collecting the money because there good at graphics so that usually equals a nice looking website.

I dont know if you'll get what i mean.

And people im also in a bad mood:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

You need the graphics skills, but if you've got them AND valid code, the world's your lobster. ?

@johndoe190Aug 23.2004 — #Again i agree with you nevermore but these people dont have valid code and have really sh*t code but get paid a fortune so i begin to wonder why am i learning the right way to code when i can learn a graphics package and still get paid.

@NevermoreAug 23.2004 — #Do things the right way and you can do all jobs; design the wrong way and you can only do the less important ones. Plus, morally, it's better.

@johndoe190Aug 23.2004 — #True and i would never switch back to my old evil coding methods as i find the current xhtml,css combo much easier anyway but these half assed developers annoy me.

@davidbrentAug 23.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by Paul Jr [/i]

[B]Actually, no. They're the ones getting business; they're the ones making the money, and it's all because the average person who wants a website doesn't know ( and doesn't care) that the designer is using tables/unsemantic code/bloated code/ect. And, I also don't get any satisfaction from it because I see so many people recommending the incorrect usage of tables — most of the folks at the HTML Forums do, and it really, really irritates me. :mad:

I couldn't say for sure, but it's my opinion that people who write good, clean, accessible, valid code are not as recognized as those who write crap, because we're the only ones who know that what we're doing is better.

I'm in a bad mood; can you tell? [/B][/QUOTE]

how i agree. it's harsh but the solution is not just spreading word of mouth. something needs to hit them. something that will show them the error of there ways. until CSS becomes as common as HTML, we are just a lowly language mankind.

[i]Originally posted by Paul Jr [/i]I'm in a bad mood; can you tell? [/B][/QUOTE]

Did i mention 'hell yeah!'

Best Wishes,

David

@buntineAug 24.2004 — #CSS is used in industry--99% of big business implement CSS in their Web Sites. The latest WYSIWYG editors all use CSS for page formatting.

All professional designers I have spoken to have a working knowledge of CSS, its XHTML and standards-complient design that is not top priority.

And it wont be for a long time. Business' does not care about Web Standards, but productivity. If you want to make some real money, your sale-point should not be "Hey, we use CSS and XHTML strict". Noone (especially clients) cares! Few companies have actually succeeded with the idea of 'pure' markup.

The following are some large Australian based Web Design firms. If you look at their Web Sites, none of them use top-notch markup, but they use traditional marketing techniques, which we all know work very well to the average consumer.

- http://www.ares.com.au/

- http://www.paperweb.com.au/

- http://www.neubreed.com.au/

All use CSS because it is standard and all designers know of it.

Regards.