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Sep 07.2005

Is there anywhere you can learn things like javascript and PHP but by using it in real life situations? I mean, yeah great I can document.write(“hello world!”) But when am I actually going to do that when I can just go <p>hello world!</p> which would be less hassle? I suppose what I’m looking for is a site that gives you projects to work towards to hone your web development skillz. Is there anything like that out there? If not I reckon a good thread would be where one of the regulars asks the newbies to make “such and such” a site which can do “this or that”. (I hope you all manage to understand that)

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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 07.2005 — So basically, you're like most other developers. Gaining skills and knowledge of how to do things, and just itching for a reason to use them. ?

I was the same for a while, but then I started a ridiculously large project. I think we could do with knowing what people are capable of first though, before we start giving challenges.
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@bathurst_guySep 07.2005 — I feel the same, so I started my own business, just for a little extra cash as well, hope it will grow into a more permanent job though. But, thats the reason I now frequent this forum, to help others, keeps me occupied in free time and also helps me to find out better ways to do things that i already know.
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@DoppleauthorSep 07.2005 — 
I think we could do with knowing what people are capable of first though, before we start giving challenges.[/QUOTE]
Touché. I hadn't thought of that.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 07.2005 — Well it wouldn't be much good setting a complete beginner the challenge of making a drag n' drop feature on a page using the W3C DOM Level 2 API events model. They're not really going to learn anything from that. Same with challenging a PHP scripter of many years to make a surname validator for a form.
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@the_treeSep 07.2005 — Try awnsering questions on this forum. All the javascript I know I learnt from that, then again I don't know [i]that much[/i] javascript.
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@NogDogSep 07.2005 — Try awnsering questions on this forum. All the javascript I know I learnt from that, then again I don't know [i]that much[/i] javascript.[/QUOTE]
That's how I've learned a lot of what I know about PHP. I started out having to learn some PHP when I inherited an application at work. I got interested in it, and eventually discovered the PHP forum here. Then I'd see a question from someone that piqued my interest, and I'd start researching the PHP documentation and try to come up with some sort of solution.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 07.2005 — Same here. I hate Javascript quite passionately actually. It's up there with regexp for its unreliability and ignorance of its own standards. My attitude with Javascript is strictly try/catch with the W3C DOM and screw anything that f***'s it up. I don't have time to waste on pandering to every single browsers own idea of what Javascript should be. Maybe if the were twice as many hours in the day then I might spend more time fussing over something as insignificant as Javascript. If the browser makers can't be arsed spending time on making their products follow well known public standards, then I can't be arsed spending time on the browser.
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@ray326Sep 08.2005 — Don't feel like you have to hold back, Stephen. Go ahead and tell us what you really think. ?
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 08.2005 — Ok. So maybe I did get a little - empassioned there, but man, does it drive me nuts. Being crap probably doesn't help my case much, but..... ARGHHHHHHHHH!!
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@DoppleauthorSep 08.2005 — Hmm. I hadn't actually thought of researching to answer questions. I think the next thing for me to learn though is DHTML so I can make some drag and drop pages. Just for the craik.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 08.2005 — Repeat after me me:

"There's no such thing as DHTML,

There's no such thing as DHTML,

There's no such thing as DHTML"

It's just... Javascript!

Or perhaps I should state on my CV that I'm familiar with HTML, CSS, Javascript, XML, DHTML, AJAX, Shizzlebing, Whiptop, Noktak, Hingdong and Hooblefiddy?!

(Don't worry Dopple, that wasn't a personal thing about you. I'm just a little [i]sensitive[/i] to words like DHTML. :/ )
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@ray326Sep 08.2005 — It's just... Javascript![/QUOTE]Well it's HTML+CSS+Javascript (but like you say, looks good on the old resume and the HR guy [and probably the hiring manager] doesn't have a clue anyway).
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@the_treeSep 08.2005 — You could be vaugely honest and give a brief explination: "I am familiar with DHTML: the combination of HTML, CSS and Javascript."
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 08.2005 — Well it's HTML+CSS+Javascript[/QUOTE]

Well yeah, but if you're making a web page, you're going to be using HTML and CSS anyway. Show me a web page with Javascript, but no HTML or CSS and I'll accept the term of "DHTML" as something other than a stupid name for javascript.

You might as well say you're profficient in computing, switching computers on and cONputing (the art of computing with the the computer switched on).

Oh and don't be put off by my rantings dopple. ? I'm not really an arse... Honest! ?

We're all here to help as much as we can. ?
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@JPnycSep 08.2005 — Well it means more than just a page containing all 3 technologies. It refers specifically to javascript used to change parameters in HTML/CSS. JS has uses which don't come under that heading.
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@NogDogSep 08.2005 — Well it means more than just a page containing all 3 technologies. It refers specifically to javascript used to change parameters in HTML/CSS. JS has uses which don't come under that heading.[/QUOTE]
So DHTML is not JavaScript, it's just a subset of JavaScript. ? :p
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@JPnycSep 08.2005 — Yes, it's not synonymous with Javascript. It's an umbrella term someone coined for dynamically changing HTML/CSS using JS.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 08.2005 — So then it'd be ok to stick on my CV "Familiarity with... ...blah blah client side stuff... .... PHP, CCE (conditional command execution - Oooooooo ), FFS (Function Form and Structure - How can you not hire me?) and LSM (Loop Structure Management - Oh now I'm getting over qualified)"

It's like going to a job interview for being a long haul driver and saying you're fully qualified, but what really sets you apart from the other applicants is that you can turn the steering wheel. :/
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@JPnycSep 08.2005 — Well actually they sort of expect that kinda junk on a CV. I had all that in my résumé when I got this job. But when all is said and done, your CV isn't really what gets you a job or doesn't get it for you. It's how you interview.
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@DoppleauthorSep 09.2005 — Yeah I've since found that out about DHTML. I figure I'll just try and bone up on javascript. I found a really good tutorial [URL]http://sislands.com/coin70/toc.htm[/URL]. Well worth it if your a beginner.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 09.2005 — Well actually they sort of expect that kinda junk on a CV. I had all that in my résumé when I got this job. But when all is said and done, your CV isn't really what gets you a job or doesn't get it for you. It's how you interview.[/QUOTE]

Very true, but then my point isn't really about getting the job. It's that [color=red][b]DHTML is a stupid. pointless and annoying, non existent term!!![/b][/color] ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

For learning Javascript Dopple, I'd very highly recommend "Javascript: The Definitive Guide, Fourth Edition" By David Flanagan. ISBN 0-596-00048-0. As far as I can see, there isn't a question about Javascript it doesn't answer. Up to date, accurate and full of info. Idea for hopeless cases such as myself. ?
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 09.2005 — Very true, but then my point isn't really about getting the job. It's that [color=red][b]DHTML is a stupid. pointless and annoying, non existent term!!![/b][/color] ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
[/QUOTE]

huhuhuhu, is someone getting angry about dhtml? :p
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@JPnycSep 09.2005 — Well it does exist since we're talking about it, and with a fairly precise definition. It's not a language but a combination of them. It's really a misnomer at this point too, since it's not really dynamic HTML but dynamic CSS. Most of the time in this day and age when people use JS for a visual effect, it's some CSS parameter being altered, not HTML. Should call it DCSS.
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 09.2005 — *Has seizure"
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@the_treeSep 09.2005 — Hmm... I am competent in both DHTML and DCSS ?
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 09.2005 — I'm the best ever in DCSS and DPHP

and did you guys hear about DXML and DXSLT?

?
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@JPnycSep 09.2005 — Don't forget BLT!
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 09.2005 — which would be?
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@JPnycSep 09.2005 — Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato. Sorry, I haven't had lunch yet.
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 09.2005 — hehehe!
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@e-realmzSep 09.2005 — Theres a new one called "DPHPHTML". It uses javascript to create php which can altar the html in any doc. Use it together with "JSCSSDCCE" and you can write some pretty advanced docs. And yo, if you want the ultimate website, combine those two with "DLMNOPQRSTUV v.2.0". Theres no turning back now.
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@the_treeSep 09.2005 — Sorry to ruin your sarcasm but how the fook could JS create PHP?
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@e-realmzSep 09.2005 — oops. I mean php create js. But then again, if God can create people, and people can create gods, then anythings possible. ?
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 09.2005 — indeed...
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 10.2005 — I'll be rocking in the corner and foaming if anyone needs me. --->
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@DoppleauthorSep 12.2005 — 
For learning Javascript Dopple, I'd very highly recommend "Javascript: The Definitive Guide, Fourth Edition" By David Flanagan. ISBN 0-596-00048-0. As far as I can see, there isn't a question about Javascript it doesn't answer. Up to date, accurate and full of info. Idea for hopeless cases such as myself. ?[/QUOTE]
Is it a reference book or is it possible to read, cover to cover without falling asleep? Does it teach you DJS? (Just kidding)
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@Stephen_PhilbinSep 12.2005 — It has a full reference sections for core Javascript, Client side Javascript and the W3C DOM. It also talks you through pretty much everything you might want to do too. Like I said, I doubt anyone with an up to date edition of this book will have a question they can't answer with it.
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@DoppleauthorSep 13.2005 — [URL]http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dhtmlref2[/URL] Should I get this one as well Stephen? ?
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@LiLcRaZyFuZzYSep 13.2005 — did you know that http://dhtml.com is owned by jupitermedia corp?
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@PeOfEoSep 13.2005 — [COLOR=deeppink]Javascript can output php... just do not expect it to get executed by the server.[/COLOR]
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