Changing from english to spanish – no database

@saeJul 20.2005

I have a website that I am thinking of making into both english and spanish content. I don’t have a database and all the text for the pages can be hard coded as the content won’t change. The pages in spanish can end in “s”. For example index.php?id=main.htm would be english and index.php?id=mains.htm would be in spanish – however I also want index.php?id=main&lang=spanish to return the main page in spanish

A little background:
The content for the “main window” of the website is generated based on a variable in the url – index.php?id=main. This then calls main.htm and includes that content. The code all adds the .htm to the end of the website so when I write a link it looks like this:

[code] <a href=”index.php?id=main”>Main page</a> or <a href=”index.php?id=mains”>Main page in spanish</a> [/code]

**Before I go on, let me tell you that I know very little about php, so the following “code” that I am going to write is most likely very wrong.**

So what I was thinking is having a link at the top of the page where you can click to change to spanish. The code for that link would be something like this

[code] <a href=”index.php?<?php echo $id ?> s”>Read this page in Spanish</a> [/code]

Obviously, once you are on a spanish page, you expect any link you click on to be the spanish version and not the english version, therefore all the links on the page should have something in them such as:

[code] <a href=”index.php?id=main<?php if $lang=spanish echo ‘s’ ?>”>Read this page in Spanish</a> [/code]

How would something like that work?
Are there better ways? – I am sure there are.

to post a comment

PHP

41 Comments(s) _↴

@BeachSideJul 21.2005 — #You could start with a link on the main page to choose the language that you would like to have.

Your file naming conventions are up to you, so if you want to name the pages with an 's' that is fine. If it is all hardcoded then it makes it easy for you.

Set a cookie based upon the user's selection. Then when they revisit the site you check the cookie and if they need to be redirected to the other language you can do so. This way it will automatically display the proper site to the user.

If you are hardcoding all of this, by setting a cookie you won't need to pass the variables in the url as you suggested. You can simply have the proper links going to the proper files.

Hope that made sense.

Good luck and if you need anymore info let us know ?

@saeauthorJul 21.2005 — #More information would be great. I have never worked with cookies before.

How are multiple languages usually handled on large websites (which I don't have)?

You can preview the site at www.sammysosa.pointclark.net/SDP

I would be adding a link at the top of the page to select your language.

@Reli4ntJul 21.2005 — #oscommerce addresses the issue by putting all text and even buttons, in a separate file in the repective language directory. Then the language chosen can be handled by cookies. This method has the additional benefit of making it easy for the non php savvy to edit the content.

Download a copy of oscommerce and check out catalog/includes/laguages directory for an example of how to do it well.

@BeachSideJul 21.2005 — #I don't know that you will want OSCommerce. It is a great application though ? so don't rule it out. I just feel since the design and implementation are already just about complete you may not want to redesign the whole thing. It's up to you though. Here is the link... http://www.oscommerce.com/

The following is assuming you continue with what you alreay have.

You know you have a few issues with some of the products?

Warning: Failed opening '$Pistachios125gr' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/share/pear') in /var/www/html/SDP/pistachio.htm on line 32
[/quote]

As far as setting the cookie it is pretty easy...

First go ahead and check this out...

http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.setcookie.php

Basically what I would do is create two directories one for English and one for Spanish this way you can make the main page like you have it and if the cookie is set you can redirect them. If it is not set they can either choose to go to the spanish version or continue on with the english version.

To redirect you can simply do something like this at the [B]very top[/B] of the page...

[code=php]
 if(isset($_COOKIE['yourcookiename']) && $_COOKIE['yourcookiename'] == 'spanish') {
 header("Location: http://yoursitename.com/spanish/yourspanishpage.php");
 exit;
 }
 [/code]

If they select the spanish page then you can set the cookie on the spanish home page like this... (remember it has to be at the very top of the code!)

[code=php]
 if(!isset($_COOKIE['yourcookiename'])) {
 // setting it for 2147483647 makes it stick for an extremly long time
 setcookie("yourcookiename", "spanish", time() + 2147483647);
 }
 [/code]

Hope that helps

@saeauthorJul 21.2005 — #Is there anyway I could get away from creating a seperate file for each page in both spanish and english?

What advantage would there be for me to set something up like a lang.php file?

@bokehJul 21.2005 — #Yeah, there is. Check out my site. [URL=http://costablancatranslations.com]http://costablancatranslations.com[/URL]

Salud y Republica ;-)

Edit: Just in case you want more info the following is the basics of what I do. Notice no query string in either language. Only time there is a query string is the first page after you change language. First I check if the client has a cookie set. Second if they don't I send the page based on the browser prefered language. If the client does change language I set a cookie. Looking at my log file though it is very unusual for a client to change language.

@saeauthorJul 21.2005 — #That went over my head LOL!

I do have a seperate but somewhat related question and was wondering how something like this might work for changing an image based on a variable in the uir for the url index.php?id=main&lang="spanish"

<i>
 </i>&lt;img src="images/
 &lt;?PHP
 
 <i>	</i>if(isset($_GET['lang'])){
 $lang = $_GET['lang'];}
 if $lang=="spanish"
 {
 echo "tops.jpg"
 }
 else
 {
 echo "top.jpg"
 }
 ?&gt;
 "&gt;

Again, the code does not work - but is something like this possible? If so, I have an idea how to create the different spanish/english content, as I am not to fond of having a seperate directory (not that it would be the end of the world!)

@bokehJul 21.2005 — #Did you look at my site?

The following is your code written so it works:

[code=php]<img src="images/<?PHP
 
 if(isset($_GET['lang'])){
 $lang = $_GET['lang'];
 }
 if($lang == "spanish"){
 echo 'tops.jpg';
 }else{
 echo 'top.jpg';
 }
 ?>">[/code]

Going back to the original question: when a web page is requested additional information is sent with that request. One of the pieces of information in the request is the language the client's browser is set to. The chances are that if someones browser is set to spanish then they want a spanish page if one is available. This information is freely available to PHP so can be used as a basis to serve websites in multiple languages.

One other thing! Your use of the query string is, in my opinion, wrong. Query strings should not be used where a standard URL would work perfectly well. You are making your URLs unnecessarilly complex for no reason. The real use of the query string is so the client can send info to the server. Anything else, in my opinion is uncorrect.

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Muchas Gracias Bokeh! No pienso que voy a utilizar el codigo que Usted me dio para esta pagina de web, pero como solamente estoy empesando a enterer como hacer paginas de web utilizando PHP, pedazitos de codigo como estos me ayudan mucho.

BeachSide:

How do I get the person to change back to the english version using the cookie option that you presented?

@BeachSideJul 22.2005 — #Wherever you have the link to change it to spanish you can have it like this

[code=php]
 if(isset($_COOKIE['yourcookie']) && $_COOKIE['yourcookie'] == 'spanish') {
 echo '<a href="yourenglishversion">Opinión nuestra versión inglesa</a>'; // I hope that is correct I am not too good with spanish 
 } else {
 echo '<a href="yourspanishversion">View our Spanish Version</a>';
 }
 [/code]

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #Just to make things even simpler I am posting a spoon feed answer. Try running this code and you will see how simple things could be. No need for multiple URLs or ridiculously long query strings. In the script I am just including a little text stored in the script but in a real application you could import a page of html text.

[code=php]
 <?php
 
 $language = get_language();
 
 if($language == 'english'){
 $display = "<a href="http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=spanish" xml:lang="es">Español</a><br />
 <p>Lots of text in english here...</p>'; // You could use $display = file_get_contents('english_text.php'); here!
 }elseif($language == 'spanish'){
 $display = "<a href="http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=english" xml:lang="en">English</a><br />
 <p>Mucho texto en Español aqu&iacute;...</p>';  // You could use  $display = file_get_contents('spanish_text.php'); here!
 }else{
 exit;
 } 
 
 echo <<< HTML
 
 <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
 "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
 
 <html lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
 
 <head>
 <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
 <meta name="resource-type" content="document" />
 <meta name="description" content="" />
 <meta name="keywords" content="" />
 <meta name="distribution" content="global" />
 
   <style type="text/css">
   /*<![CDATA[*/
 
   /*]]>*/
   </style>
 
   <title>Blah blah</title>
 
 </head>
 
 <body>
 $display
 </body>
 
 </html>
 
 HTML;
 
 
 function get_language()
 {
 
 // Make global variables more digestable
 $language = $_GET['language'];
 $cookie = $_COOKIE['language'];
 
 // Check browser first language
 $first_browser_language = substr($HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE,0,2);
 
 //Validate $_GET['language']
 if (empty ($language)) {
 }elseif ($language == 'english') {
 }elseif ($language == 'spanish') {
 }else{ $language = 'english';
 } 
 
 // Check for desired language in the GET variable
 
 if (isset ($_GET['language'])) {
 setcookie ('language', "$language", time()+100000000, '/', '', 0);
 return($language);
 
 // If the GET variable was empty check for desired language in the COOKIE variable
 // select page to send depending on the language in the COOKIE variable (if any) 
 // If the COOKIE variable is empty do not return a page to the browser 
 }elseif
 (isset ($_COOKIE['language'])) {
 // ----- Validate $_COOKIE['language']
 if (empty ($cookie)) {
 }elseif ($cookie == english) {
 }elseif ($cookie == spanish) {
 }else{ $cookie = english;
 } 
 return($cookie);
 
 
 // If neither of the above give a positive result set language according to browser preference 
 }else{
 
 
 // ----- Check if English is first prefered browser language. 
 if ($first_browser_language == en) {
 return(english);
 // ----- Check if Spanish is first prefered browser language.
 }elseif ($first_browser_language == es) {
 return(spanish); 
 // ----- Check if Spanish is a preferered language (first, second, third, etc...). If yes send spanish.html
 }elseif(strstr($HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE,"es")) {
 return(spanish);
 
  }else{
   return(english);
  }
 }
 
 } // End function
 
 ?>
 [/code]

@BeachSideJul 22.2005 — #So you would still have to make the seperate language pages?

I like this part, nice way of doing that! ?

[code=php]
 // ----- Check if English is first prefered browser language.
 if ($first_browser_language == en) {
 return(english);
 // ----- Check if Spanish is first prefered browser language.
 }elseif ($first_browser_language == es) {
 return(spanish); 

 // ----- Check if Spanish is a preferered language (first, second, third, etc...). If yes send spanish.html
 }elseif(strstr($HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE,"es")) {
 return(spanish);
 
  }else{
   return(english);
  } 
 [/code]

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Wherever you have the link to change it to spanish you can have it like this

[code=php]
 if(isset($_COOKIE['yourcookie']) && $_COOKIE['yourcookie'] == 'spanish') {
 echo '<a href="yourenglishversion">Opinión nuestra versión inglesa</a>'; // I hope that is correct I am not too good with spanish 
 } else {
 echo '<a href="yourspanishversion">View our Spanish Version</a>';
 }
 [/code]

[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Now how would the link to change back to english work?

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Thanks guys. I'll give that "automatic" version a try tonite and I'll let you know how I fair.

Beachside: In your post how do you specify which page to load? (or do I still have to use the cookie setting as part of this last code you posted?)

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #So you would still have to make the seperate language pages?[/QUOTE]Well the data has to be stored in some form, (database, separate files, same files, etc) but you want it somewhere non public so it doesn't get accessed out of context.

I don't know if you visited [URL=http://costablancatranslations.com]my pages[/URL] but if you do you will notice no query strings except when changing language. This means the English and Spanish pages have identical URLs. Also There is a language link on every page so those who don't allow cookies to be set can still read all the pages in both languages.

Lastly, the only important part of what I posted is the get_language function. Everything else is just icing, used to demonstrate the function. Obviously it could be implemented any way the user might choose.

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Yes I did take a look at your site.

Mine defaulted to english, but I could switch to spanish, and back to english. What code did you use for that switch.

That is the part I am confused about.

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #Yes I did take a look at your site.

Mine defaulted to english, but I could switch to spanish, and back to english. What code did you use for that switch.

That is the part I am confused about.[/QUOTE]I used something very similar to that function I posted. It defaulted to English either your browser is set to English or it doesn't have English or Spanish as one of its prefered languages.

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Yes, I understand that.

Could you post the code that you use to "force" the change to spanish from english or vice-versa.

Is it as simple as creating a link like index.php?id=main&language=spanish

I am sorry that I am asking this again, but I am just not understanding it :p

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #Yes, I understand that. Could you post the code that you use to "force" the change to spanish from english or vice-versa.

Is it as simple as creating a link like index.php?id=main&language=spanish[/QUOTE]First I already have posted the code. Go back and read the thread again. Also id=main is a total useless and unnecessary query string. Use proper URLs without query strings if it is possible.

Grab the script I posted earlier and run it. It is a complete ready to run script. It can answer every question you have asked thus far.

Run the script first then come back and ask questions if you need to.

@Brain_StormJul 22.2005 — #Bokeh is right! What's the point coming back asking questions when you haven't even bothered to try the posted scripts.

By the way, nice script.

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Ok, Sounds good. I come back if/when I have issues!

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Wow...what a nice code, it worked perfectly for me as you posted it - but then I tried something and broke it!!!

I got this error

Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_STRING in /var/www/html/SDP/phptest.php on line 7

[CODE]<?php
 
 $language = get_language();
 
 if($language == 'english'){
 $display = "<a href="http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=spanish" xml:lang="es">Español</a><br />
 $display = file_get_contents('english.php');
 }elseif($language == 'spanish'){
 $display = "<a href="http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=english" xml:lang="en">English</a><br />
 $display = file_get_contents('spanish.php');
 }else{
 exit;
 }[/CODE]

am I missing a ; or a ' somewhere?

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #Maybe you should learn some basic stuff first!

What do you want to do by modifying it? What are you trying to achieve?

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #well this is my first attempt at php. So I really do appreciate all the help you have offered so far!

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Well Instead of it saying "Lots of text in english here..." and Mucho texto en Español aquí..." I want it to show the content of my main page. Which is why I changed it to $display = file_get_contents('english.php');

But now I realize that I think you meant replace the first $display with the stuff you had in comments.

My question then, is how do I incorporate this into my existing design or how do I show my content?

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Ok...give a day or so, maybe I can figure it out.

@bokehJul 22.2005 — #

[code=php]<?php
 
 $language = get_language();
 
 if($language == 'english'){
 $display = file_get_contents('english.php');
 }elseif($language == 'spanish'){
 $display = file_get_contents('spanish.php');
 }else{
 exit;
 }
 [/code]

@saeauthorJul 22.2005 — #Is file_get_contents only to put one string of information from a file?

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #Just out of interest, where are you?

Let's say you already have a complete HTML page in each language. Is that true? They are called english.html and spanish.html you could use the following code, but you also need to put a link in each HTML page so you can swap languages. Here's the code:

[code=php]<?php
 
 $language = get_language();
 
 if($language == 'english'){
 include(english.html);
 }elseif($language == 'spanish'){
 include(spanish.html);
 }else{
 exit;
 }
 
 function get_language()
 {
 
 // Make global variables more digestable
 $language = $_GET['language'];
 $cookie = $_COOKIE['language'];
 
 // Check browser first language
 $first_browser_language = substr($HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE,0,2);
 
 //Validate $_GET['language']
 if (empty ($language)) {
 }elseif ($language == 'english') {
 }elseif ($language == 'spanish') {
 }else{ $language = 'english';
 }
 
 // Check for desired language in the GET variable
 
 if (isset ($_GET['language'])) {
 setcookie ('language', "$language", time()+100000000, '/', '', 0);
 return($language);
 
 // If the GET variable was empty check for desired language in the COOKIE variable
 // select page to send depending on the language in the COOKIE variable (if any) 

 // If the COOKIE variable is empty do not return a page to the browser 

 }elseif
 (isset ($_COOKIE['language'])) {
 // ----- Validate $_COOKIE['language']
 if (empty ($cookie)) {
 }elseif ($cookie == english) {
 }elseif ($cookie == spanish) {
 }else{ $cookie = english;
 }
 return($cookie);
 
 
 // If neither of the above give a positive result set language according to browser preference
 }else{
 
 
 // ----- Check if English is first prefered browser language.
 if ($first_browser_language == en) {
 return(english);
 // ----- Check if Spanish is first prefered browser language.
 }elseif ($first_browser_language == es) {
 return(spanish); 

 // ----- Check if Spanish is a preferered language (first, second, third, etc...). If yes send spanish.html
 }elseif(strstr($HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE,"es")) {
 return(spanish);
 
  }else{
   return(english);
  }
 }
 
 } // End function
 
 ?>[/code]

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #That works like a charm!

I am having a bit of trouble with the language changing links (surprise, surprise) ?

This is what I have so far:

<i>
 </i>&lt;a href="http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=english" xml:lang="es"&gt;English&lt;/a&gt;

but obviously that doesn't work because there are php elements in there, so I would need something like this:

<i>
 </i>
 &lt;?PHP
 &lt;a href="http://" .$_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF'].'?language=english" xml:lang="es"&gt;English&lt;/a&gt; 
 ?&gt;

But obviously that doesn't work because I have a < in there.

Is the link set up properly, even though it might be coded wrong?

BTW, I am from North America.

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #Post a link to the page.

[code=php]<a href="http://<?php print $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF']; ?>?language=english" xml:lang="en">English</a>
 <a href="http://<?php print $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST'] . $_SERVER['PHP_SELF']; ?>?language=spanish" xml:lang="es">Espa&#241;ol</a>[/code]

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #Thanks that works great!

http://www.sammysosa.pointclark.net/SDP/

One problem I am having (which I don't think you have because you don't use ?id=file to specify which page to display) is that when I am on a canadian subpage (haven't created the spanish ones yet) when I click on the link to change languages, it goes back to the spanish index page and not the same page I am on but in a different language

For example, if you click on the language link in http://www.sammysosa.pointclark.net/SDP/index.php?id=peanuts you would expect to go to the spanish version of that website, but instead you go to http://www.sammysosa.pointclark.net/SDP/index.php?language=spanish

I suppose I could overcome this by creating a .htm file for each page and adding the code that I have in index.htm (only I would change the includes from spanish.php and english.php to peanuts-english.php and peanuts-spanish.php - for example)

Would this work, is it the easiest solution?

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #Well first it should say ?language=spanish not ?id=spanish. Obviously the language script must be in every page not just one.

Lastly please give an in depth explaination into why you are using a query string to call a static web page. Why do you need ?id=about? Why aren't you using about.php? Can you even think of one good reason?

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #Well the main reason I did it is to have one "template" file and just include the left links and the main content. I also wanted to learn how to do it (new to php, etc) - but now that I know it I can move on ?

if I go with peanuts.php, aboutus.php, etc I will have to create 3 files for each "section". One to hold the script that you gave, one that has the english and one that has the spanish (the files that would be called from the script). Although this appears to be the easiest way to do what I want to do, it seems like too many unnecessary (in my opinion) files are being created. But what do I know, you are the one with the answers LOL ?

I really would like to have a "template" file that includes the other pages because then if you want to make global changes to the website you can do it in one file and not 12 or more.

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #The whole reason you are having that trouble is you are importing the content into the template. What you should be doing (in my opinion) is putting your unique content in individual php files and then importing the shared template. The following is an example.

This is the unique php file:

[code=php]<?php
 $description ='';
 $keywords ='';
 $stylesheet ='@import url( css/default.css );';
 $title ='Page title';
 //Any Javascript for the page head section here
 $javascript ='';
 
 //Get top of the page
 require('../templates/template.php'); //Path and filename of template
 top_of_page($description, $keywords, $stylesheet, $title, $javascript);
 
 echo <<<HTML
 
 <!-- Content here -->
 
 HTML;
 
 
 //Get bottom of the page
 bottom_of_page();
 
 ?> [/code]

And here is the template:

[code=php]<?php
 
 ### HTML for top portion of page ###
 function top_of_page($description, $keywords, $stylesheet, $title, $javascript)
 {if (!empty($stylesheet)) { 
 $stylesheet = '<style type="text/css">
 /*<![CDATA[*/
 ' . $stylesheet . '
 /*]]>*/
 </style>';
 } 
 
 if (!empty($javascript)) {
 $javascript = '<script type="text/javascript">
 /*<![CDATA[*/
 ' . $javascript . '
 /*]]>*/
 </script>';
 }
 
 echo <<<END
 <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
 "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
 
 <html lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
 
 <head>
 <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
 <meta name="resource-type" content="document" />
 <meta name="description" content="$description" />
 <meta name="keywords" content="$keywords" />
 <meta name="distribution" content="global" />
 
   $stylesheet
 
   $javascript
 
   <title>$title</title>
 
 </head>
 
 <body>
 
 END;
 }
 
 
 function bottom_of_page()
 {   echo <<<END
 
 </body>
 
 </html>
 END;
 }
 
 ?>[/code]

The above is just a quick example.

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #What I have done so far is created:

index.php (script you gave me)

index-english.php (included in index.php)

index-spanish.php (included in index.php)

peanuts.php (same as index.php but changed the include links)

peanuts-english.php (included in peanuts.php)

peanuts-spanish.php (included in peanuts.php)

I then have two folders that hold the spanish and english content. Inside these folders I have the left navigation links .htm file and all the other content information files.

The system works very slick, I just have to create a .php file for each section. If I understand correctly, this is how the script was supposed to work, right?

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #The script was just an example. You can structure your site however you choose. What I was trying to point out is that using a query string to call a static page is errornous.

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #Please explain, what is the proper use of a query string?

I'd like to know.

Using it so that you can have a template page seemed a good use to me ?

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #The proper use is for getting info from the client to the server. In the case of my script the client wants to visit index.php but on arriving finds it in the wrong language. The client sends a request to the page to change language via the query string. As you can see the query string only exists because the client is dynamically changing page output. As both my English and Spanish pages share identical URLs the query string is the only option I have but I use it sparingly.

You are using the query string where a straight URL would work just fine.

Also with my site the Spanish and the English pages have the same URLs. That means an English person who read the page could send the exact same URL to a Spanish person and that person could read the same page in Spanish.[B]

Using a query string to serve static pages is just like using tables for layout. It is wrong but you see it everywhere on the web.[/B]

@saeauthorJul 23.2005 — #I am setting mine up with the same url also.

So far I have done teh peanuts and sunflower seeds sections

Ok, what's the proper use of tables and why are they so bad? ?

(one of these days I should learn how to make a website without tables, should be interesting)

@bokehJul 23.2005 — #Correct use of tables is to display tabular data [URL=http://myhomewebserver.co.uk/dns_test.php?domain=www.sammysosa.pointclark.net&type=A](like this, for example)[/URL] not to control page layout. That is the job of CSS.why are they so bad? ?[/QUOTE]They are bad because they iinflate html and make page difficult to access for the handicaped. Also external CSS is cached for use in subsequent pages.

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