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Help me with this please!!!!

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May 13.2004

I am a bit of a novice to website designs and would like a lot of help with my website…..[URL]http://www.leftback.com[/URL] I have only just started with it and I would love to know how to get people to visit the site and also I would like to know what I need to do to make it a great site…

P.S. Criticism is welcome also.

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@David_HarrisonMay 13.2004 — Well, your page is [url=http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.noseblow1.btinternet.co.uk%2Flbindex.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=HTML+4.01+Transitional&ss=1&noatt=1&No200=1]invalid[/url] and you use tables for layout as well as depreciated tags such as center and font.

My guess would be that you have use some sort of WYSIWYG editor, don't do that, they're all a bag of crap. Some people say that Dreamweaver is quite good but it's no substitute for hand coding.

The bright red background and the white text just hurts, so I wouldn't recommend keeping that colour scheme either.

If you want to know what will get visitors to come back, well that should be your content (ie: the main focal point of your web-site). Of course, presenting the content in such a manner that it doesn't hurt is also a good technique. ?
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@noseblowauthorMay 13.2004 — lavalamp

Thanks for the feedback...

Thats wierd. I must confess I used a template for this site which I didnt want to do but I did my first site[URL]http://www.movies4u.co.uk[/URL] and it looked absolutely crap. I thought I would be better off using a simple template for a completely new site and then addapting it but maybe I was wrong. I dont know what to do now.. Should I nick someones site or should I persevere?

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@David_HarrisonMay 13.2004 — I would recommend buying a book on XHTML and CSS, I bought myself a copy of "Elizabeth Castrow's HTML for the World Wide Web 5th Edition with XHTML and CSS" a while back and it's very good, but there are many other books out there (if you do get one, make sure that it teaches [b]X[/b]HTML not just HTML).

It doesn't take very long to learn because (X)HTML is very simple and the CSS is very logical. You could probably go through the book and be creating basic layouts all in the space of about a week.

I think that your first site is better on looks but you have pages in nested frames. :S That's not a good way to go about making a layout and neither is tables.

Take a look at [url=http://www.fsg-uk.com/rjsystems/index.php?a=1]this page[/url], it's not the most complicated layout in the world, but it's not meant to be either. Just take a look at the source though.

There's very little actually in the source, this means that it's very simple to update. All of the brains of the stuff is in an external style sheet which is used on every page. Just one of the advantages of CSS.

If you decide that you don't want to get stuck in to hand coding then that's fine and you should probably use a ready made layout, but make sure you choose a good one (not just one that looks good, but is also coded well). Such as the ones on [url=http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/]blue robot[/url].
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@philawebMay 14.2004 — "Noseblow",

There are some good compromises to be made when deciding on whether to use HTML editors or hardcode by hand. I use the following two editors when coding HTML, CSS.

If you want to hardcode and keep things simple with an extended Notepad sort of application - you might want to try this EditPad Lite freeware editor:

http://www.editpadpro.com/editpadlite.html

If you want to hardcode and have an editor ready to meet your needs as you learn more and more - you might want to try this AceHTML 5 freeware editor:

http://freeware.acehtml.com/

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any of the above linked to companies, nor do I have any economical interests in them.
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@David_HarrisonMay 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by philaweb [/i]

[B]Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any of the above linked to companies, nor do I have any economical interests in them. [/B][/QUOTE]Jeez lighten up. ?

I myself use notepad because I find other editors annoying and unhelpful. I think that they are either too slow loading or far too overcomplicated to use, I just want to open and type.

I think that it would be good if Mozilla allowed you to edit the source code of pages with their source viewer, or at least specify a different program to view the source with.
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@Aronya1May 14.2004 — leftback,

First of all, the red/white combo works for me. It's a football (soccer in the States) site, so those kinds of colors seem appropriate somehow.

You are using frames. Bad idea if you want to rank high in the search engines. They look for page content. Check the source code on your first page - there's no page content. What kinds of Google search terms are going to match your page content? Answer: None. Lose the frames.

Keep your pages' formatting consistent. You have very different layout & color schemes on every page. There's no feeling of consistency. [SIZE=1][COLOR=red]edit: The reason for this is found in my next suggestion.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Clicking your nav links displays other people's sites, but the address says it's your site. Don't import someone else's website into your own without permission. I don't know if you've asked for their OK or not, but my guess is you didn't. Have your links open new browser windows instead. That way, the visitor stays at your site in one form or another, if that's what you are trying to do.
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@philawebMay 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by lavalamp [/i]

[B]Jeez lighten up.[/B] ?[/QUOTE] *LOL* ?

[B]I myself use notepad because I find other editors annoying and unhelpful. I think that they are either too slow loading or far too overcomplicated to use, I just want to open and type.[/B][/QUOTE]

"lavalamp",

Open up and type is fine with me... But, it's really nifty just to press two buttons and get one of your own templates open and just add a few things. AceHTML 5 has different colors for different code - cool when out of syntax, messes up the colors.

I'm too lazy for Notepad - too much tedious repetition, and I'm too lazy for FrontPage etc. type of editors - too much unneccesary code added, takes too much time to clean up.
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@Ben_RogersMay 14.2004 — Alright, I also like the look; it's simple but effective, although you badly need to smooth out the logo: the page has a nice clean, simple look, the logo should reflect this.

You really should get rid of the frames, even if the actual content is on the same page. Converting from a table layout to a CSS layout (check http://www.csszengarden.com/ for some k1k4s5 examples) is a VERY good idea as well... once you get into CSS it's very easy to use and update, trust me.

Also, I have the same book as Lavalamp, and I reccomend it as well, it's an excellent tutorial. Converting to XHTML is a good idea, too.

Finally, please don't have the links open in new windows: this is annoying and to some viewers confusing. Let them open in the same window, it does no harm, and they can press back when they want to get back. It'd be even better if you could get those sites that you link to to link back... maybe once you're more set up and SEO'ed it'll happen.
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@David_HarrisonMay 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by Aronya1 [/i]

[B]First of all, the red/white combo works for me. It's a football (soccer in the States) site, so those kinds of colors seem appropriate somehow.[/b][/quote]That red is just too harsh for my liking.

[i]Originally posted by Aronya1 [/i]

[B]Have your links open new browser windows instead. That way, the visitor stays at your site in one form or another, if that's what you are trying to do. [/B][/QUOTE][url=http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-interim-accessibility]NO!!!!!!!!!! 10.1![/url] Just don't use frames and when someone leaves your site to go to another the URL bar will change therefore eliminating the problem.
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@Aronya1May 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by lavalamp [/i]

[B]NO!!!!!!!!!! 10.1![/url] Just don't use frames and when someone leaves your site to go to another the URL bar will change therefore eliminating the problem. [/B][/QUOTE]
So... Stop beating around the bush. How do you really feel about my suggestion? :p

The reason I suggested opening new windows is to allow people to see what you want them to see, but still keep them at your site. I think people here tend to give web users more credit than they sometimes deserve. I support them in the real world, and they get confused easily. Give them a link to another site and wave goodbye. There's a fair chance you won't see them again. They don't know they [B]have[/B] a BACK button.
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@Ben_RogersMay 14.2004 — I've never seen a web user so inane they didn't know of a back button (though most-all people don't know much about webdevelopment <mocking>You need games on here...</mocking). I don't think opening up windows is a good idea, and second Lavalamp.. (Can I call you LL from now on? It's easier to type :-p) EDIT: Typo.
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@David_HarrisonMay 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by Aronya1 [/i]

[B]So... Stop beating around the bush. How do you really feel about my suggestion? :p[/b][/quote] Sorry for being so blunt. ?
[i]Originally posted by Aronya1 [/i]

[B]They don't know they [B]have[/B] a BACK button.[/B][/QUOTE]The back button is an integral part of web-browsing. Most people learn that if they click on a link and get taken somewhere they didn't want to go they can just click "Back" and it'll be as if it never happened.

If you open a new window it can confuse some less savvy web surfers because the back button is now broken, even worse is if you open a pop-up without the standard buttons on it and there is no back button.


noseblow - If you do want to open a new window make sure that it's EXTREMELY obvious that it is going to open a new window, then at least people know they can just close it to get back to where they were.
[i]Originally posted by omega [/i]

[b]Can I call you LL from now on? It's easier to type :-p[/b][/QUOTE]So that's four names I have now, lavalamp, lava, LL and David.
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@Aronya1May 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by lavalamp [/i]

[B]Sorry for being so blunt. ?[/b][/quote]No problem. No offense taken.
[B]

The back button is an integral part of web-browsing. Most people learn that if they click on a link and get taken somewhere they didn't want to go they can just click "Back" and it'll be as if it never happened.

If you open a new window it can confuse some less savvy web surfers because the back button is now broken, even worse is if you open a pop-up without the standard buttons on it and there is no back button.[/b][/quote]I agree completely, but it doesn't change what I deal with on a regular basis. These are the same people who don't know how to send an email if they can't click on a Reply button.


[B]noseblow - If you do want to open a new window make sure that it's EXTREMELY obvious that it is going to open a new window, then at least people know they can just close it to get back to where they were.[/b][/quote]That's a good suggestion/compromise. I'll second it. As web developers we need to keep in mind the lowest common denominator. Translation: keep things obvious.
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@Ben_RogersMay 14.2004 — I think I'll go by David. Anyways, if you MUST open it in a new window, at least make it XHTML. I beleive &lt;a href="http://www.example.com/" title="Explain the purpose of the link" onclick="this.target='blank'"&gt;Example&lt;/a&gt; is the correct way to do this.

EDIT: I second making it obvious, btw.
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@David_HarrisonMay 14.2004 — target doesn't exist any more, you'll just have to use window.open in the onclick:

onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Pop-up blockers won't stop it because it is actually inline with the link code, if you were to move it to a function then it would be blocked.

Edit: Omega, does your new avatar mean "Omega" in chinese? ?
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@Ben_RogersMay 14.2004 — Trust me, it still works in the JS form, or at least it still does for me. And, no, Dave. Omega isn't a word: It's a greek character, how could it be Chinese? But, if you want to talk about my avatar.... http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189182
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@David_HarrisonMay 14.2004 — [i]Originally posted by omega [/i]

[B]Omega isn't a word: It's a greek character, how could it be Chinese?[/B][/QUOTE]Psst, I know, I did A Level Physics and it's used to denote the unit of measurement for resistance. That's what the ? was for.

Although the target attribute will still work with JS, it will also work in the XHTML (unless you use XHTML 1.1 and send it as application/xhtml+xml to a compliant browser). But if you use in the mark-up it will be invalid (for strict DTD's) so I suppose by using it in the JS you are changing the mark-up to something invalid after the page has loaded.
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@Ben_RogersMay 15.2004 — Uhm... I knew that... <shifty eyes />. I've never taken physics so all I knew was it was part of the Greek "character set" in the same way a D is part of the English "character set".

I suppose that's true, but I am kind of going for usability here... and target='blank' means for users without javascript the page will open in the same window for them, and also if you change the url you don't need to change the onclick="" attribute.
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@David_HarrisonMay 15.2004 — [i]Originally posted by omega [/i]

[B]<shifty eyes[color=red] /[/color]>[/b][/QUOTE]?
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@Ben_RogersMay 15.2004 — Yes... my scarily semantic RPGish actions. I tell you, it just isn't right when you're subconsciously using semantic valid code while explaining your eyes... it's a disease... ?
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@Aronya1May 15.2004 — I know a lasik surgeon...
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@Ben_RogersMay 15.2004 — Please tell me more!!! I need help! <breaks into="tears" /> :p
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@Aronya1May 15.2004 — LOL
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@theuedimasterMay 15.2004 — sry man, not a big fan of the red and white, personally, i think there should be a (since i am a dreamweaver fan i like layers...oooh...layers....) complementing layer below the news text to seperate it from the white... too much white really. Use maybe a light color red? Personally i think two colors isn't really enough to make site nice. For mine, i use basically a set orange, and multiple shades of gray. I think it looks nice...I hope it looks nice. its at http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/sigmasevencompany/Sites/entertest.htm

So my advice is, white is a good solid color you can use on your pages, and pick different shades of(edited) red to compliment the white and each other. Good Luck!
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@Ben_RogersMay 15.2004 — Although I may disagree with theudi's site's looks, his advice is usually a good idea. However, (feel free to shoot this argument down), I think that only having 2 colors very much so compliments the clean look of your site.
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@theuedimasterMay 16.2004 — Actually i found a site that uses white and red pretty efficiently. maybe you can get a few ideas from them. it is : http://www.smksuperstore.com
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@Ben_RogersMay 16.2004 — That's a good example, even though I'd make the logo a bit more noticeable. Another one [good example] [i]would[/i] be DanielLThomas' old deisgn on his site.. that also had a nice clean look, as well as a good, simple but effective header. Of course, he heard the comment about "orange is the new black", and got his orange scheme thang on :-p.
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