Which language?

@moretaJan 27.2004

I’m trying to determine whether my office should branch out or change its primary web coding language. If so… to what. Hoping you’ll help me reduce my options.

We are using HTML and JavaScript with a CGI to access legacy data. We show and accept data and process it with our legacy system. Since things have worked well so far, we want to expand the amount of information we’ll accept and the general content of the site (example: enter applications, change data, display information).

I knew little about our language options (little, as in HTML and JavaScript). Y’all are my best hope. Please… share your opinions on web languages. What do you think I should check out?

Pretty pleeeze? ?

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21 Comments(s) _↴

@Robert_WellockJan 27.2004 — #PHP or Perl and SQL and XML since they are all open source and work well under cross-platform conditions.

@moretaauthorJan 27.2004 — #Thanks for the suggestions!

I know SQL (to some extent), and at least know about XML. Can you recommend a site for some general information on PHP and Perl? You know... their purpose... what they were intended to do that other languages don't have covered.

Why those? Do you [b]like[/b] working with them, or just think they're possibilities?

Not Java?

they are all open source[/quote]I've heard the terminology, but don't really understand. This is different from licensing, isn't it?

Thank you!

@spufiJan 27.2004 — #http://www.perl.com/

http://www.php.net/

A number of people had said that PHP is easier to learn than Perl. I haven't looked into Perl yet, so I don't know.

You are on the right track with open source. Look at it this way, if you saw something wrong with PHP, or you wanted to tweek it, you could. With something like ASP, you can't. At least not legally.

I believe Java's strength would be on the application side versus how strong PHP and Perl would match up. Not to say you can't use those things for apps, but just Java would be better.

@moretaauthorJan 27.2004 — #I believe Java's strength would be on the application side versus how strong PHP and Perl would match up. [/quote]I'm assuming menus, basic screen displays, and links are standard. We'll also have considerable validation, calculation, and rule checking on the forms. Is this what you mean by "application side"?

I love the idea of open source, but have enough sense to know that I'm not up to modifying a coding language on the fly.:o Open source [i]would[/i] mean that I could take advantage of a useful tweak contributed by a hardier soul. ?

If I decide that we need the strengths of two languages (in different areas), will they play nicely together?

@spufiJan 27.2004 — #By application, I mean writing a program that has nothing to do with the net. Like using Java to create a text editor. Java can be used with web technologies, but it also works as creating nothing, but programs you use on your computer. Java as a server side language, aka JSP, is on the slower side compared to thing like Perl and PHP. I'm not sure about things like JavaBeans and that type of stuff.

By two languages playing nice, do you mean PHP playing nice with Perl, or PHP playing nice with something like XML?

@moretaauthorJan 27.2004 — #By application, I mean writing a program that has nothing to do with the net. Like using Java to create a text editor. Java can be used with web technologies, but it also works as creating nothing, but programs you use on your computer. Java as a server side language, aka JSP, is on the slower side compared to thing like Perl and PHP.[/quote]Java is clearly not the way I need or want to go. Thanks for explaining why, Spufi.

By two languages playing nice, do you mean PHP playing nice with Perl, or PHP playing nice with something like XML?[/quote]In the HTML forum I've seen threads that remark on using PHP with HTML. That's what I mean by playing nice. We can be working in one language, but bail temporarily to use the strengths of another.

@moretaauthorJan 27.2004 — #I don't know which ones [languages], yet.

Thanx for the perl and php site references. I'll check them out!

@moretaauthorJan 30.2004 — #I expected to be overwhelmed by the choices, but it's been fairly easy checking out the languages suggestioned. ?

I'm unclear about an important aspect of PHP.

If I include PHP code in a JS, does it run the PHP code each time the JS is called? Or, does the PHP code run only once when the HTML page is loaded with the resulting code remaining static until the page is loaded again?

By two languages playing nice, do you mean PHP playing nice with Perl, or PHP playing nice with something like XML?[/quote]Maybe I understand better what you were asking.... We are presently using HTML with JavaScript. We aren't going to throw those out, so anything we use will need to be HTML friendly. For example, you can embed PHP code in HTML code. Will this work with Perl, too?

[OBTW] I finally found the perl overview in www.perl.com, but it took me a few visits. I'm still trying to sort out whether it's something that might be of interest to us.

Thanks for the suggestions, information, and feedback! You're saving me a ton of time! ?

Moreta

@spufiJan 30.2004 — #Offhand I don't know how well JavaScript will directly work with PHP. The big reason being that JavaScript tends to run client side and PHP tends to runs server side.

Now, JavaScript can run server side, and PHP can run client side. Running PHP client side to do something like create a GUI interface, or respond to keyboard commands is something on the newer side for PHP, and "PHP Cookbook" has some info on it in the later parts of the book. Not much mind you.

If you were to pass info using JavaScript to something like a cookie, you could then use PHP to read the cookie and do some processing based on what's in the cookie. I don't think you can write some JavaScript and include PHP within the JavaScript code. I may be wrong in this, but I think you have to do all of the JavaScript processing, and then do the PHP processing seperately.

The more I look at what PHP, or server side scripting can do, I just see less and less use for JavaScript. You may end up converting some of your JavaScript code over to PHP. Plus, 13% of the net have JavaScript disabled, so your JavaScript souldn't be doing something that forces your site to work unless you have a work around already set up. Users can't disable PHP and Perl.

I don't know much about Perl, but I do know that it does interact with (X)HTML and it is a powerful langauge in it's own right. I just had people say that PHP was easier to learn and that's why I went and checked it out PHP first.

@moretaauthorJan 30.2004 — #Offhand I don't know how well JavaScript will directly work with PHP. The big reason being that JavaScript tends to run client side and PHP tends to runs server side.
[/quote]I think the full meaning of "server side" just sunk in. It's not just that it runs on the server, but it has to run [i]before[/i] the html page is displayed... not [i]while[/i] it's displayed. Right?

PHP sounds friendlier than Perl on the sites I've found. The variety of stuff I'm seeing on PHP makes me curious, so I plan to eavesdrop on the PHP forum awhile. Maybe absorb something through osmosis.:p

Otherwise, I'll concentrate on data options first (not the legacy side, but data to make our web programming easier and more efficient). SQL? XML?

Spufi, thanks for letting me bounce things off you. It helped me define our needs... didn't realize how vague they were until I started talking to you. ?

@spufiFeb 01.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by moreta [/i]

[B]Otherwise, I'll concentrate on data options first (not the legacy side, but data to make our web programming easier and more efficient). SQL? XML?[/B][/QUOTE]

You can use things called flat files, but I'm thinking in this day and age that using XML files would be better when you want to use a file. When it's better to use a database, then I would check into using MySQL.

@teenlifeFeb 02.2004 — #I would say PHP, this is coming from having in a week or so having absolutely no previous programming knowledge, being able to read a few things and download the PHP manual knock out something like www.teenlife.org.uk basically I created my own article management script. I think you should go the php route, everything is very straightforward and the things you can do on it are quite extensive. If you do go for it and want a hand with it, let me know, im looking for challenges to make my knowledge of php grow.

@PeOfEoFeb 02.2004 — #I am going to have to say not php. Just whatever your past programming experience is. If you know vb or c++, go with asp.net, know java, go jsp or php. So on and so fourth.

@moretaauthorFeb 02.2004 — #whatever your past programming experience is. - PeOfEo[/quote]That's a good rule, but this time there are more factors than my preference. That's why I wanted input from y'all (read that "desperately needed"). I want to go with things that will be best/easiest for my company to use, not necessarily easiest for [i]me[/i] to use.
You can use things called flat files, but I'm thinking in this day and age that using XML files would be better when you want to use a file. - Spufi[/quote]I'll check further into XML. Could use flat files... don't know best way to access with HTML as a base? Would rather not... (in this day and age) programmers might have to work harder to use flat files than XML.
If you do go for it and want a hand with it, let me know, im looking for challenges to make my knowledge of php grow. - TeenLife[/quote]Be careful what you offer... people may take you up on it.?

I checked out the ASP.NET link in PeOfEo's signature block. Looks like ASP.NET replaces HTML as a document/page base? But, XML and PHP can be used from within HTML? Can XML be used from within JavaScript?

Why do I always end up with more questions than answers!:p

@PeOfEoFeb 02.2004 — #asp.net is a server side scripting like php, doesnt replace html at all, it outputs it. It can output xhtml too, its whatever the doctype you specify. If you use php asp asp.net jsp, whatever, you are still typeing html, you just have a script section on your page that the browser will never see, it says behind and the server outputs additional html from it. ASP.NET can also use xml, mainly I use xml just for config and light data storage though, but asp.net also offers comething called the xml webservice, it goes into SOAP and RSS, so on and so fourth. Javascript cannot write files btw, you can probably get data from a file in it (dono, never tried) but it cannot update, write, or delete data from any files. The server is not going to let the client's browser do crap like that, and java script would basically be just that. Even if java script could, I wouldn't do it though, content should not realy apon java script, 13% of the internet would be left out. Not to say that I do not use java script, I just use it for aestetics and stuff that is not important for site functionality. (ie, drop down menus + a backup nav for those who cant see them)

@moretaauthorFeb 02.2004 — #We already use a CGI interface for our legacy data. I was hoping to store look-up information in a file that I could read from within JS for data validation [i]before[/i] a form is submitted. If a user had JS, it would give them immediate feedback on "bad" entries. If they don't have JS, then the form will validate the entries on submit.

For example, if the user enters the year 2003, then valid entries for a vehicle are different than for the year 1993. Defining all values for all years in JS are mind-boggling. I could force a submit after the first entry, but that's so... inelegant. (Is that a word?)

Because ASP.NET and PHP are server-side, they wouldn't be able to do this. Will [i]anything[/i] do this? If not, I'll probably force a submit after the year and read a file for my next level of input. {sigh}

At least I'll know a lot more about what's available to handle future issues! ?

@PeOfEoFeb 02.2004 — #ASP.NET and PHP can do this, but what happens is the server side scripting will genorate the client side scripting. That is the whole idea of the asp.net required feild validator. The problem with these things though, is asp.net will not output the type="text/javascript" attribute, just language="javascript" so it will not validate. So it is more proper to do that by hand.

@moretaauthorFeb 03.2004 — #ASP.NET and PHP can do this, but what happens is the server side scripting will genorate the client side scripting. [/quote]?

I'll look at both. Probably the PHP forum (I haven't had time to do much of that, yet) and maybe www.asp.net. I haven't even dropped by the ASP forum, but will try it, too. If there's a better site for a general grasp of these, please let me know.

Wish I could spend a day or two simply browsing on these, but for some reason I'm expected to be productive!? I [i]will[/i] look into these two in greater depth, but it'll take me a few days.

Thank you, everybody!

@spufiFeb 03.2004 — #http://www.phpbuilder.com/

They have a PHP forum that's only about PHP and has a bunch more posts on the subject.

@moretaauthorFeb 03.2004 — #http://www.phpbuilder.com/ [/quote]Looks like it will have lots of information and some code I can check out, too. Thanks!

@moretaauthorFeb 11.2004 — #Teenlife helped me understand PHP better. And made me realize that my explanation of what I wanted to do wasn't as clear as I'd thought.

I want to access a data file [b]without[/b] loading another page. When the viewer enters a year in a field, I want to generate the valid options for another field (same page) from a data file [i]without[/i] leaving the current page.

Unless y'all know something we don't, I have to load a new page in order to read data from a file. (Teenlife -- if I misunderstood, please correct me.) I can do this using our current CGI, so no gain.

Thank you EVERYONE! I didn't get the answer that I wanted, but I have a better understanding of how it all works and what's available to use another time. That's a [i]good[/i] thing! ?

Moreta