Tables – Frontpage 2000 – HELP PLEASE!!

@bjcaudleJan 17.2004

Hello,

First, let me say that I am a newbie to the art of website creation. I studied HTML until I was blue in the face. I have my web site almost done, which was no easy feat for me, but fun, and am pleased with it so far – lot of trial and error. I admire anyone that has the knowledge of HTML, etc. and their creativity when it comes to web creation.

I do not have my website published yet – wanted to get it done before I exposed myself to the world.

Now – on to my problem. I am creating in FP 2000 my website for my Persian Cats. I decided to use tables instead of frames to place my titles, buttons, e-mail icons, etc. in. I have had no problems getting the tables to work like I wanted them to until now.

After reviewing several web sites relating to Persian Cats, I decided to go back and place under the title of Tooliebouce Persians which appears on each page – a subtitle to identify the pages more clearly, i.e., “Males”, “Females”. “Photo Gallery”, etc.

EXAMPLE: (All centered)
Tooliebouce Persians
Males

Now comes the problem. I figured out how to add an additional table under the main Title table to place the words “Males”, etc. in. I saved the page, closed the page and opened up the next one for females. Low and behold, the words “Males” was on this page also as a subtitle. I checked the remaining pages and it was there also.

I tried to redo each page by taking out the words “Male” on each page and replacing it with the appropriate subtitle. This would not work, everytime I change the word – say males to females, the word that I typed appears on the rest of the pages.

How can I get it to work? I would appreciate any help that you might be able to give me.

__________________

The wisdom of many and the wit of one.

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54 Comments(s) _↴

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #ditch the front page it is bad. You can just fix it by opening the html files and digging into the code with a text editor then saving it.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 17.2004 — #PeOfEo,

I understood the part about ditching the FP, but the rest of your message I didn't understand a word.

I am new to this HTML stuff and you will have to be more specific in your instructions - in other words - plain English - PLEASE.

I do appreciate your help.

As for ditching the FP - what do you suggest I use? Why do you not like FP 2000?

Please send replies to [email][email protected][/email]

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #well I would suggest anything but front page. Dreamweaver if you can get it, html kit (I have not used it but some others like it). Just anything with line numbers and syntax highlighted text, autocomplete would be a +. But fp will output bad code, especially if you are using the wysiwyg features. To fix this manually save the html files, then right click them and go to open with and scroll down to notepad. Once you open them there you will see the html, you can manually change it from there and then save the html file from the source code then open it again in fronpage and it should be how you want it to be. Are you using the wysiwyg features of frontpage? I suggest you take a look at www.w3schools.org they have good tutorials there.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 17.2004 — #I know that it is difficult sometimes for people that are so knowledgable about their fields to try to explain things to someone that is not, but, you are [b]WAY, WAY[/b] over my head.

I found HTML Goodies on the Internet, printed out everything that he had available, cost me mega bucks to print out. I studied and studied the HTML Codes and as I found what I needed to create what I wanted on my website, and I wrote the Codes down and went from there. I searched the Web for a free background that was acceptable for my website, as well as buttons, etc.

I cannot tell you how many hours I have put into this website. I think my hubby is going to divorce me if I don't get it done. I am sure glad it is hunting season!!

[b]Sorry - I got side tracked[/b]

I understand about opening the page in Notepad -- but you said that I could manually change it from there and then save the html file from the source code then open it again in frontpage and it should be how you want it to be.

What am I suppose to be looking for to change? I know that you think I am stupid, but I haven't a clue.

Also, how will I know if I am using the wysiwyg features. I know what they stand for, but I don't know if I am using them or not.

Also - I read somewhere on the Internet, that using Tables for layouts was stupid. If so, why? They have been working on my website.

Please don't get aggravated at me, I really need to solve this problem, or, I am going to pull all my cat's hair out, because I have already pulled all of mine out.

Am I going to have to start over? ??

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #I have more long suffering then you think, and I do not think you are stupid, you are just new to this. I was asking questions like this once too. Well look in notepad for whatever is messing up. If the title is wrong, look for the title in the html code in notepad. Html positions relative to where it is in the code, for instance if something is at the bottom of the page it will be at the bottom of the code. wysiwyg is wht you see is what you get, it is where you basically draw the webpage in frontpage and it outputs the code. That is bad. I am glad you are actually trying to learn html. html goodies is not a very good tutorial site unfortunatly, it uses outdated and frankly bad code. But if you are just starting It can help you I guess to grasp how web design works. Their are many reasons why tables can be considered bad. While I suggest not using them the alternative would be another technology called css. I love css, it is a very good tool for layout. But you probably are not ready to take on css. It took me a while to learn, I am still relativly new to it. If you want to see sort of what it looks like you can look at http://bluerobot.com/web/layouts/layout3.html

and hit view the css.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 17.2004 — #Thanks for the confidence!

I looked over the CSS on the web pages you suggested, I like that look.

I have added a lot of HTML Codes on my own in the website, so I think I might be able to figure CSS out.

I am a stick to it kind of person. I won't give up until I figure things out. I love to be creative and make things work!

If I can tackle the HTML and figure out what, where, why and how to put everything in sequence on my website. I think that I would like to try the CSS. I can play with it, just like I did the rest of the stuff.

Where do you suggest I go for up-to-date information on CSS?

Will this mean that I will have to start the website from scratch?

Do I just create a new website with a new name and start there with the CSS? I have no problem inserting all the buttons, pictures, text, etc. again.

Okay - I have no problems checking the Codes in notepad. The actual title of my website is not the problem. I want it on every page and it automatically repeats itself on each page.

I didn't use Frames because I wanted everyone to be able to view my website. Everything that I looked over said if you can get by without using them do. I can do frames. Was that information wrong?

What I want to know is when I created the page layout in FP2000 and selected the - "I wanted a Header, left Side Bar, and Bottom option", was that telling the website to repeat everything in each table on every page? Can I fix this? I guess what I am asking is can I go back and make each page stand alone so that the tables will not repeat themselves on the other pages.

The problem that I am having is trying to keep the subtitle words stable. Page 1 is my Introductory Page. Page 2 is for Males, Page 3 is for Females and Page 4 is for Photo Gallery, etc.. Each page has the Heading - Tooliebouce Persians.

When I insert the table for the subtitle and insert the words "Males", page 2 - save and close. Then go to the page 3, which is the Females page, it has "Males" as the subtitle too. If I change the words "Males" to "Females" on that page, it changes the words on page 2 from Males to Females. Am I explaining this well enough.

Please give me your suggestions.

Thanks Again

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #well I do not know exactly what fronpage does since I do not use it, but it does some screwy stuff. www.w3schools.com is where I learned css, www.w3.org would have the most current info on it. Yes if you used css you would have to redo your page. But css can be read from an external file. Meaning all of your layout code would be in layout.css and all you do it put a line of code at the top of your html page and it imports that layout to all pages. So you only need to write the css one time. Avoid frames, infact never use them. If you want the same content on every page that would be best suited for something called server side includes, but hold off on that though until later. Lets tackle the basics first. Have you ever though of taking a tutorial layout like the ones on www.bluerobot.com and just modifying them a bunch but keeping the framework and learning from that? Because when you write it all from scratch it could be difficult and frustrating if it does not work. CSS is definatly harder to use then tables I think, but it has many advantages over tables. It will save you bandwdith, keep you organised, and be more accessable. If you want to jump right into css, more power to you, but if you want to stay back and work with tables that is fine too, until you have the basics down and firm.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 17.2004 — #I ran across the bluerobot.com site while I was waiting on an answer from you. I thought that I would go back to it later and look more deeply.

I will go to the sites that you provided. I think that I am going to play with the CSS and see what I can do with it.

That is after I get this **#)(#) website up and running. I guess that I will just forget about the "Subtitles" for now and continue with just a "Title" at the top of the page. That is for now!! I will figure this out eventually though!

I want my website to be done correctly, so I will just burn the midnight oil some more and get more basic information under my belt.

When I get it published, I will send you the whereabouts and you can see what I have done.

Thanks a Bunch for your time and patience!

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #No problem, I am going to be out of town for the next 3 days so take care. Remeber don't sit there codeing for too long, thats how you get carple tunnel ?.

@ray326Jan 17.2004 — #One way to get going really fast is use [url=http://www.inknoise.com/experimental/layoutomatic.php]Layout-o-Matic[/url] to make a page layout similar to what you need then fiddle with the CSS to make it look like you want.

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #Well you could just as easily jack one of the little boxes

http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/boxes.html

I guess you could get your framework up like that, but then you have to try to understand what is going on. That is where a place like w3schools would be real good for reference.

@spufiJan 17.2004 — #I'm not 100% sure on how you are doing things, but to make a title looking thing on your page all you should need to do is something like...

<h1>My website</h1>

Add in a subtitle and you use...

<h2>My sub title</h2>

You then use CSS to style, format, position the tags where you need them. You don't need tables to do this. See "Why using tables for layout is stupid" in my sig for more info on why not to use tables for layout.

It's a non-finalized version of a template I made, but you can take a look at it anyway. Do view source on the code and you will see no tables, and very little markup at all. Mostly because it's a way basic template.

XHTML:

http://www.matts-website.net/alt/

CSS:

http://www.matts-website.net/alt/styles4.css

My actual site doesn't use tables either, but frankly that version needs to be cleaned up because I know how to do it with less code now.

A much better example though is...

http://www.csszengarden.com/

All the versions you see use the same HTML file and then use a different externally linked CSS file that formats everything including background images which there are a lot of because there are no image tags.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 17.2004 — #Thanks for all your help. I will get this accomplished eventually. Gotta go right now - my eyes are crossing. I have been at this for far too long.

PeOfEo: Have a safe "3-day trip".

@PeOfEoJan 17.2004 — #Thanks

@Aronya1Jan 17.2004 — #bjcaudle,

I haven't used FP in a long time, but it sounds like you are using a template (or maybe a custome theme?) of some kind. Any change to that template makes changes to the whole site. Not sure how to help you fix that without telling you to start over.

One thought: can you add your "subtitles" a little lower on the page? Like an <H1> tag in the body? You didn't say that you can't change the body content of the pages in the site, right?

@leadingirlJan 17.2004 — #hi bjcaudle,

i personally recommend dreamweaver or at least homesite. but even with dreamweaver i need to use code view really often. you can download trial version of the program. let me know if you do it and i'll tell you something after this

also just send me your file (one of those u told about or just copy code and paste it here.

@Paul_JrJan 17.2004 — #Alright... yes, DreamWeaver is an excellent app, but only if you know how to use it, and you have a firm grasp of HTML, CSS, and other languages that you are going to be using. If not, then DW can be as bad as FP, and that's not gonna help you at all.

For beginners, and even some more advanced designers: Notepad and a nice thick book/good website on whatever language you're trying to learn.

@leadingirlJan 17.2004 — #DW will never be as bad as FP

that's first.

notepad is TOOO hard even for me because it's a totall mess of code there. i use it when i need to make some quick update or such and i'm on PC that doesn't have any special program only. by the way bjcaudle said that knows html.

my latest site is www.allbonjovi.com. maybe it's not perfect, but i put link here just to show what i made in couple of days with this soft. (fireworks too)

@Paul_JrJan 18.2004 — #In the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing, DW can be as bad as FP.

Notepad is too hard? Pffft, I scoff at your spoiledness! ?

Also, the only thing I can say about your site is...

Spacer .gif's, tables... Ick. *Shudder*

The point is, in the hands of an inexperienced user, any editor/WYSIWYG tool can be as bad as FP.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Paul, Jr.

I appreciate your frankness re: my website, tables and the fact that HTML in the hands of a novice can be really, really bad.

I would like you to know, I had never even seen or heard of anything called HTML before tackling this website. I have spent many a sleepless night studying this stuff and I taught myself what little I do know. It may not be correct in the eyes of an expert, but I think I have done exceptionally well, even getting this far. I will redo it when I have more knowledge regarding the "new" Codes, but now WYSIWYG.

By the way, my website looks great on the Web!!!

@Paul_JrJan 18.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by bjcaudle [/i]

[B]Paul, Jr.

I appreciate your frankness re: my website, tables and the fact that HTML in the hands of a novice can be really, really bad. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I was actually refering to leadingirl's site (which I actually like ? ), not yours. But I can't really talk, I don't spew out works of art, I just have a thing about tables, and people who worship DW. :p

[i]Originally posted by bjcaudle [/i]

[B]I would like you to know, I had never even seen or heard of anything called HTML before tackling this website. I have spent many a sleepless night studying this stuff and I taught myself what little I do know. It may not be correct in the eyes of an expert, but I think I have done exceptionally well, even getting this far. I will redo it when I have more knowledge regarding the "new" Codes, but now WYSIWYG.

By the way, my website looks great on the Web!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
Woo! Awesome. My first "sites", if you could call them that, were... ick, I won't even say. :p

Meh, sorry if I've had an attitude, I won't get into the details of my life, but, yeah, pardon me. Many apologies.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Aronya1

I didn't use a template, I created the background, gold buttons and everything myself and added the Tables and just stuck everything in the tables as a picture - except the body text. Yes - I can change the body text of the site with no problem at all. It is just physically typed in without using any tables, just coded for placement.

I did however, in the beginning choose the option of "Normal Page" and added the tables with shared borders. Is this my problem - the shared borders? If so, can I fix this without having to start over?

I created the Title, Subtitles, and Buttons in my PhotoShop 6. I made transparent .gifs and created gold text using the Drop Shadow, Inner Shadow, Inner Glow, Outer Glow, Bevel & Emboss, Shading, Contour, Satin & Color Overlay. I taught myself how to do this too!

Then I inserted tables at the top to contain the Title, on the left-side to hold the nav. buttons, my e-mail icon, and guestbook icon and at the bottom to hold another set of nav. buttons. I just inserted all the stuff I created as a picture (.gif).

If I delete the table at the top, can I just use the H1-H2 Codes instead. Will that give me my Title and my Subtitles without them being shared on all pages?

If I can just get this to work like I want and get it published, I can go back and study HTML, CSS and then create a new site - the right way according to you guys.

I know I probably did everything the hard way, but I got it to work!

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Paul, Jr.

Sounds like we both need a large cup of hot cocoa, a fuzzy blanket and a fireplace to relax in front of.

I am sorry too!

My feelings are a little bit touchy when it comes to this website.

I have worked really hard on this thing and want it to be as professional as I can get it. That is why I am seeking advice. I am not using DW. ?

@Paul_JrJan 18.2004 — #Man o man, hot cocoa, fuzzy blanket, warm fire, now that's what I'm talkin' about. :p

The best of luck to you, I know how frusterating things like this can be. ?

@Aronya1Jan 18.2004 — #How about a link to your site? Maybe we can tell you how to fix the problem.

@Aronya1Jan 18.2004 — #Hot cocoa and a fuzzy blanket by the fire...

Sounds like we're moving into stage 2 of this relationship. ?

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Aronya1

I haven't published it yet! I didn't want to "get it out there" until I had it finished.

I can, if you want.

@Aronya1Jan 18.2004 — #It's up to you, but it's pretty tough for us to tell you how to straighten something out without being able to see the problem.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #I will figure out how to publish it on RoadRunner and then get back to you.

@Aronya1Jan 18.2004 — #OK. If you'd prefer not to "publish" the address, you can email it to me if you'd like. I can't promise to have the answer, but I'll take a look. There are others here with better skills than mine, so consider just posting it publicly.

@ray326Jan 18.2004 — #leadingirl, if you're interested here's the heading of your page done without tables. Even without id-ing the divs and factoring out the styles it looks better to me and it looks identical to the table version on the screen.

[code=php]
 <div>
 <a href="#"><img style="display:block;float:left;border-right:1px solid black;"
 src="images/allbjlogosmallws.gif" alt="All Bon Jovi logo" name="allbjlogo" 
 width="180" height="45" border="0"></a>
 <div style="float:right;margin:15px 5px 0 0;">
 <a href="#">allbonjovi.com</a> &bull;
 <a href="http://allbonjovi.com/links.html">links</a> &bull;
 <a href=
 "http://associatesshop.filzhut.de/shop/index.php?ID=2bf67671cd6d0a0938ef60688c1816c7">
 shop</a>
 </div>
 </div>
 <div style="width:100%;background: url(images/bg01.jpg);">
 <img style="display:block;float:left;" name="image" 
 src="images/allbj-01.jpg" width="309" height="100" alt="">
 <img style="display:block;float:right;" name="" 
 src="images/allbj-02.jpg" width="189" height="100" alt="">
 </div>
 [/code]

@spufiJan 18.2004 — #You can just post your code(HTML) here too.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #SPUFI

I received your message, but I don't think you meant to send to bjcaudle.

@spufiJan 18.2004 — #Actually I did mean you.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Spufi,

Okay - I tried to insert my HTML but, it said that the info. was too large.

I am in the process of trying to get what I have finished on the Web. I really wanted to finish it first, but you guys want to see what I have done, so here goes.

[b]By the way -- what does it mean at the bottom of FP when it says: 75 seconds over 28.8.[/b]

It may take me a while to figure it out - so be patient.[B]

@spufiJan 18.2004 — #It means that if a person has a 28.8K connection, that's how long it will take to fully load the page. I have a feeling that a reworked version will be A LOT smaller. ?

By the way, pick up "Designing with Web Standards" at some point.

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Spufi,

[B]By the way, pick up "Designing with Web Standards" at some point.[/b]

Is this located on the Web or is it a book?

__________________

@bjcaudleauthorJan 18.2004 — #Hello,

Its me again. I have been trying to publish my website to Road Runner and I keep getting this message.

Server error: can't close file: www2/bham/tooliebouce/.available.htm.tmp

Can you tell me what is wrong. I have checked the page over and over again and can't find anything as far as I know.

@leadingirlJan 18.2004 — #hi all especially Paul Jr andv Ray?

just wanna let u guys know that i KNOW how to use layers, and so on. i just DON't want to use them on real site. well i admit i use wrong thins but i try to avoid different browesers problems and so on. i saw css layers desingned pages that look like one layer hides behind another one when window 's changing or some other bad things.

sorry if i write something wrong, english is not my native language.

thanx for code, Ray, i'll try it anyway.?

@leadingirlJan 18.2004 — #heyyy this code doesn't work right u know?))

hehehe

i use opera 7 by the way

@bjcaudleauthorJan 19.2004 — #This message is to everyone that has battled through this with me. I FINALLY GOT IT PUBLISHED!!

http://bham.rr.com/tooliebouce

I still haven't conquered the subtitles yet - but will get on it ASAP. I am going to copy the webpages to a new folder and play with them there.

Please give me your very [b]honest[/b] opinion as to what you think about my website. If you see anything that I need to do to make it better PLEASE let me know. Do you think that it is too busy?

I know I need something on the index.html to make it more inviting - what about a small picture of one of my Persians that preceeds the works Tooliebouce in the text portion of the page?

I am sure that the HTML isn't written to perfection, but I will work on it. Remember: I am a newbie to this HTML stuff.

@Paul_JrJan 19.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by bjcaudle [/i]

[B]

http://bham.rr.com/tooliebouce

[/B][/QUOTE]
It's a bum URI. ?

@bjcaudleauthorJan 19.2004 — #Paul, Jr.

What do you mean it is a bum URL?

@bjcaudleauthorJan 19.2004 — #Paul, Jr.

I finally see what you mean. Sorry!!!!

http://home.bham.rr.com/tooliebouce

@Paul_JrJan 19.2004 — #Saw two things immediately:
[list=1]

[*]Red scrolling marquee

Ditch it, the red color doesn't match the page, and scrolling things?

[*]Background

Once again, doesn't really match the page, and it flickers? Ditch it.

[/list]
Well, there's my 0.02 cents.

Also, yes, "Designing with Web Standards" by [URL=http://www.zeldman.com]Jeffery Zeldman[/URL] is a book.

***EDIT***

Just came upon the "Males" and "Females" pages. I'd also get rid of the sparkly, flickering things there too.

But... FUZZY KITTIES!!! ? I love kitties!!!

@bjcaudleauthorJan 19.2004 — #Paul, Jr.

I can get rid of the marquee and the sparkly stars no problem. What background, picture dividers, etc. do you suggest I use.

The background is suppose to flicker - its sparkly stars.

I love goudy things. My husband said I must have been either a raccoon or a crow in my past lives because I sure like things that sparkle.

Thanks for your input.

@leadingirlJan 19.2004 — #?

i love your kitties but please remove that pointer effect

next - i gonna play with your files for a while.

@Paul_JrJan 19.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by leadingirl [/i]

[B]:)
i love your kitties but please remove that pointer effect

next - i gonna play with your files for a while. [/B][/QUOTE]
Pointer effect? Hmmm, *switches to IE* THERE IT IS! Lol, yes, I'd remove that as well.

@leadingirlJan 19.2004 — #to paul jr

i found much more in IE than in opera?

and even fonts differ?))

@Paul_JrJan 19.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by leadingirl [/i]

[B]to paul jr

i found much more in IE than in opera?

and even fonts differ?)) [/B][/QUOTE]
I had to switch from FireBird to IE to see what you were talking about, with the cursor.

@spufiJan 19.2004 — #bjcaudle, I'll just give you a list of links to look at and then you can do the footwork to learn what you need to do to change your site around.

All links are in my sig. below.

1. Click on the Doctype link. Read the article and then copy the XHTML Trans. Doctype and insert it as your first line of code.

2. Click on and bookmark the W3C validator link. You will be using this link to validate your page.

3. Click on the "Why tables are layout are stupid" link. You'll soon be getting rid of all of your tables.

4. Click on the Layout-o-matic and List-o-matic links. Use the layout one to create a template for your site. Use the list one to help create a list for your menu. For more info, click on the "Taming List" link. Bookmark the homepage while you are at it.

5. Check out W3schools. Just note that any code they give you should be validated to make sure it's still valid. It's a good site for newbies, but they still need to work on valid code in some spots.

6. Links not currently in my sig, but should be shortly are ones for different browsers. Download the following three, Mozilla, Firebird, Opera. All three of which are much better at showing how a web page should look like according to the W3C than what IE does.

http://www.mozilla.org/

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firebird/

http://www.opera.com/

@PeOfEoJan 20.2004 — #I am back, but do not feel like reading 3 pages ? anything left that is unaswsered?

@ray326Jan 20.2004 — #[i]Originally posted by PeOfEo [/i]

[B]I am back, but do not feel like reading 3 pages ? anything left that is unaswsered? [/B][/QUOTE] Yea. Panthers or Pats?

@PeOfEoJan 20.2004 — #man I really made a heck of a typo... I was going to the colts... they lost! So I hate the pats now... PANTHERS ALL THE WAY!

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